Introduction
In this episode, we talk to two Digital Government leaders and friends, from Australia and Estonia. Siim Sikkut and Randall Brugeaud share their key insights on the fundamental principles of adopting digital in government; transparency of users data and the future of government services.
Podcast host, Fleur Anderson is joined by:
- Randall Brugeaud, Australian Government's Head of Digital Profession
- Siim Sikkut, The Republic of Estonia's Chief Information Officer
Listen to Episode 5 on:
Transcript
Fleur Anderson:
Hello, and welcome to The Digital Insights Podcast. A podcast brought to you by the Australian government's digital profession, keeping the Australian public service digital ready. I'm Fleur Anderson, and I'm your host. Today, I acknowledge that we are recording this podcast on the lands of Ngunnawal people, the traditional custodians of the land. I pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that request to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.
Welcome back to The Digital Insights Podcast. Last time we spoke about you using human-centered design principles when designing government services and keeping the human experience the number one priority. Today, we're going to shift gears a little and meet with two senior leaders in digital government in today's episode, leading a country through digital. Today, I'm chatting to Randall Brugeaud.
Hi Randall.
Randall Brugeaud:
Hi.
Fleur Anderson:
Randall is the head of digital profession and the head of the Simplified Trade System Implementation Taskforce. And joining us from Estonia is Siim Sikkut, the government chief information officer and deputy secretary general for Digital Development from the Republic of Estonia. So it's Friday morning in Estonia, [foreign language]
Siim Sikkut:
Hi.
Fleur Anderson:
So Estonia and Australia are 15,000 kilometers apart. You guys are pretty good friends, so I'd love to find out how did you meet and how did you get to know each other? Randall, do you want to start?
Randall Brugeaud:
Yes, happy to start and thank you for having us today. Siim and I met, I think it was nearly four years ago. I just started in the CEO role with the Digital Transformation agency and Siim while he might talk it down is a bit of a rockstar globally when it comes to digital in government. And so I'd sent Siim an email and said, 'I'm just starting in the digital government role for the Australian government, and I'd love to touch base.' So Siim and I have been in touch ever since, built a friendship and been involved in a whole range for OECD, digital government exchanges, and we've been able to share our experiences and I've even been able to get over to Estonia a couple of times and Siim introduced me to their prime minister, so it's been a very fruitful and close relationship.
Fleur Anderson:
I think you're absolutely right. I have watched Siim online, he is the rockstar of digital government. So how have you found getting to know a country, all the other side across the world and getting to know Randall, Siim?
Siim Sikkut:
Well, exactly as Randall said, I think the very first time we actually properly chatted was when Randall took the journey of 15,000 kilometers and was here for an event we had started to host every autumn. So it must have been a digital summit around that. And look, I mean, just more widely, we all are really peers in this profession. So it's oftentimes that look, whoever is doing yourself job in another country, you immediately have a connection anyways. And so if somehow you then have a click beyond that, I'm happy to exactly call Randall friend then, it's only better. So my point being that we often meet, exactly know these little circles and these relationships build up because there's always the thing to share from picking each other's brains.
Fleur Anderson:
And so from picking each other's brains, what have you learned the two of you about any similarities that you've noticed between Australia and Estonia? Siim, maybe I could ask you first.
Siim Sikkut:
So what it comes down to is that fundamentally the similarities and the challenges, isn't it? So we are all of us working on this thing called government. And I mean, in many, many ways, the stuff you do. If you try to transform the government or bring digital in or bring more digital in our case. So the fundamental challenges into the setting and the scenery is the same. Yeah. There were little bit differences in elements, like, how does the concrete governance set up work out? What's the way to getting a decision done or what's the way to organize for delivery, but fundamentally, we have the same things, like, how do you solve for the identity? What are your levers in terms of your mechanisms to ensure everyone's on the same page?
So that's the common ground. In terms of the solutions, they might be different and they have been in our case and that's okay, but we can even sort of take off the principles and [inaudible 00:05:20] this sort of policy learnings in a way your management, the leadership learnings from each other, and we have. And the other thing, well, what's been sort of intriguing to me and you know why, it was no brainer to pick up Randall's call in a way is to say that the ambition behind the DTA and the sort of willingness to change the game, I think that's very much a commonality.
Fleur Anderson:
That's so interesting. Randall, you actually went over to Estonia, was there anything about the country or the people that struck you as a little bit familiar?
Randall Brugeaud:
I think we are very similar culturally. I think friendly, welcoming, very creative, very good sense of humor. It's a very natural relationship, I think, that we have between Australia and Estonia, but also very motivated, very determined. And as Siim said, as we come together with other countries, as well as we meet with OECD leaders, as you go around the table, the kinds of topics that you discuss are very common. The point that seemed made about digital identity, how do we identify our citizens and provide services to them? How do we maintain trust? How do we coordinate complex service delivery in a way that seems simple from a end user perspective, all of these concepts are entirely common and we've been able to work together across a number of countries to be able to accelerate the way we deal with these issues.
Fleur Anderson:
And so learning from each other. So one of the things is that I found really interesting is that, although we don't speak the same language, Estonia and Australia are quite similar in that they're consistently ranked highly in terms of quality of life, education, and digitization of public services, and the growth in technology companies. What I'd like to understand from you, Siim, is what are the differences here? Obviously, Estonia has come to become a world leader in digital government and digital services from a very different position to Australia. I just wondered if you could talk us through what started it.
Siim Sikkut:
Sure. I just remember another commonality we have, I think both of our people, we really love a good barbie don't we?
Randall Brugeaud:
We do.
Siim Sikkut:
Anyway, Estonian story, how we started going digital and why we have it on this track is really that we don't know any better. So, for us, the context is we are 1.3 million people. So the context, when we were starting to reboot the whole country in '90s, going to market economy, going to democracy, I mean, all that, then that happened to be a time when internet was just taking off and going mainstream and this whole digital way you really starting. And so it was a chance for us to lean forward in that sense. And it was really first an experiment to see how can we pull off this challenge of being a fully fledged country with very little resources? We also don't have [inaudible 00:08:55] which is to build them. We really have those few people we have.
And so as internet and technology was taking off, it was intent to say, "Hey, but look, can that actually allow the government to create more bank for the buck?" And at the same time, for the whole country to really pull more than we otherwise could, and these experiments worked.
So what it was, the first things like getting tax office to not just have digital decorations, but really rethink the whole process and then make it easy to pay taxes, immediately more taxes started coming in. So we saw the fruits and that made it interconscious like a strategy effort. So that was a hope and a dream and a hypothesis behind it turned out to be true, and then it became deliberate effort.
And so that's been our journey ever since, from there taking it to all corners of public sector, taking it to all domains of work we do. And from users' point of view, really to the point where almost anything you can do online. So that for almost anything, there is digital service, at least in terms of bureaucracy. So the only exceptions are, you still have to show up to get married and divorced, so sorry for that.
Fleur Anderson:
And so one of the things that is a little bit different, I mean, Australia is very much more geographically isolated from other countries, yet you cannot say the same about Estonia. Yet you have got an interesting, I suppose, position or stance around how you store data. Can you talk us a little bit about that, about how you operate in Europe?
Siim Sikkut:
Yeah. Well, so the overall picture is that we have realized very early on that if we want to have digital services, if you want government to rely more on digital tools of all sorts, well, you got to have the trust of people because without trust, then you don't have users. If you don't have users, you don't get any impact for even if you do stuff digitally. So that has laid, I think, all of Europe and Estonia, especially to realize then, look, we have to really manage for the trust, and in that sense to put in place the frame of the legislation, the frame of GDPR, General Data Protection Regulation, but also in Estonia case, we're going beyond that realest of build out of tools and practices that sort of increases trust among people.
So stuff like we can see there's a feature in our national, the citizen portals - the citizen gateway, where I can see what happens to my data, so I can have review my log, who has access to my files, for example, or the data about me, or same thing in digital health record and so on. So my point being that it's not just this sort of theoretical principles of trust, we actually create a features or brought it down the feature and sort of processing technology level for you to have an oversight what happens to data.
But fundamentally, fundamentally we go for the sharing by default option. So in our case, we protect privacy, not by limiting use, but allowing for effective management and control of use. And that's what sort of really instrumental to really enable a lot of the push for digitization that has happened.
Randall Brugeaud:
And there's strong controls as well, Siim, isn't there? In the event that there's misuse of data or access that's not authorized, then there can be criminal penalties, can't they?
Siim Sikkut:
Exactly. We had some hospital nurses sector or finance if they looked into VIP data they shouldn't have right? Another thing there is that, another thing is the penalties, but we are deliberately blunt and transparent when stuff happens, if it's, let's say cyber incident happening, or somebody abuse privacy access and so on. So to first of all, show the point and how this is a deterrence against the next ones, but also to show the public saying, "Hey, we don't hide from you." And so by that transparency, we try to really create this trust.
Fleur Anderson:
And you created a data embassy as well, didn't you? As part of that building of public trust?
Siim Sikkut:
Well, to a degree. So that embassy in a way is a bit of different tangent in a sense that in a starting case from systems resilience, point of view more, so in a starting case, we don't have basic paper backups, so stuff happens. Obviously, you keep data in different data centers and your back stuff and so forth, but fundamentally there is no paper back up anymore. So if stuff really hits the fan and I mean, in our neighborhood, it can be manmade conflict as we unfortunately see just a few borders down from here, it can be some sort of natural disaster happening.
So what happens then? So even if we have data sort of backed up and everything sort of in the country here, all, ultimately we might need to have it somewhere else abroad as well in a cloud environment, allows that. But we wanted to make sure that we also have jurisdiction and everything about that. So that meant that essentially what we did with data embassy was to say, "Hey, we will have the extension of our government cloud abroad, and we will have it on the Vienna Convention." So basically it will be our jurisdiction applied there. So we took the legal concept body to the cloud and data center sort of world and then have more resilience for whatever happens here, we are able to keep the country running because country runs digital anyway.
Fleur Anderson:
So that's so interesting. So Australia obviously is geographically a lot larger and we have bigger population, but we are also working with our neighbors in a different kind of way, aren't we, Randall? In terms of helping in the region.
Randall Brugeaud:
So for you mean capability building in the region where we're supporting other countries in the region to build digital capability?
Fleur Anderson:
Yes.
Randall Brugeaud:
And I think that is a similarity that we do have with Estonia in that there are partnerships that Estonia has formed, and in fact, in some of their commercial organizations that they built, they have moved into the global realm in providing capability that other countries need, cybersecurity is a really good example of where Estonia has strong capability of they share.
But in Australia, we are investing in supporting, developing nations in building digital skills, in building government services that are user-centered, but also, to Siim's point, exploring opportunities to provide that resilience, that countries that are geographically isolated in the region desperately need and may not have the internal capability to deliver themselves.
Fleur Anderson:
So would you say that we are now paperless society on the same scale of Estonia or we a little bit further to go?
Randall Brugeaud:
I think we're a long way off. Estonia has built their digital government from the ground up. And I think, Siim, the marriage and divorce are the two. I don't know if you can do a mortgage as well digitally.
Siim Sikkut:
You can know.
Randall Brugeaud:
And this is how fast it's moving. I think the last time Siim and I spoke, it was still mortgages you needed to do physically where that has also moved to digital. So 99% plus of all of the public service interactions in the Estonia government are digital. Many of the high volume interactions in Australia are digital, but we are moving much more toward providing a broad range of services in a digital form, because in order for us to be able to deliver the efficiencies and there's efficiencies within government, but there's also economic efficiencies.
I think the digitization in the Australian context is valued at about 2% of GDP. In Australia, there is a lot of economic benefit in any country for that matter for digitization. And so Australia is driving very hard to build, many of the capabilities that Estonia has had for many years. So digital identity, a data integration and sharing capability, such as Estonia's X-Road. The capability to be able to automate decision making and provide greater control to the community are all features of what we are trying to build in more joined up services.
Fleur Anderson:
So are you saying that the economic productivity gains that Australia's can get is a lot more than what we're at the moment?
Randall Brugeaud:
Oh, indeed. And in my new role, in the simplified trade implementation taskforce, we're analyzing the cost of paper in the trade environment is been modeling done, which indicates that the cost of paper in the cross border trade environment is about half a billion dollars a year.
Fleur Anderson:
Really?
Randall Brugeaud:
It's incredible. And by digitizing more, it creates opportunities for economic efficiency.
Fleur Anderson:
I guess that's right. When you're doing transactions these days, it's always shocking when you do have to fill out something on paper and get it to an physical office, it seems very antiquated.
Randall Brugeaud:
Yes. And in fact, what we are looking to do is to leapfrog the let's make a paper form digital, because that still inherently has the inefficiencies associated with multiple reporting, where you're dealing with one agency for a given purpose, and you provide them biographic information and other information to support the service that you are consuming, and then you do exactly the same thing with another organization where the ultimate objective is more as with Estonia. Once you've told the government about yourself, then you can simply then provide updates as you need to.
Fleur Anderson:
Okay. So I suppose the first question then is, as we discussed in another podcast, do we even need a form as part of the design of when you are trying to simplify?
Randall Brugeaud:
And in many cases, the answer to that would be no. And we do have examples in Australia where there are digital services, where there is no requirement for any formal interaction. When you go and visit a doctor and you hand your Medicare card over, as they process that you are receiving a service, but you don't complete an application form, money just turns up in your bank account as your rebate for seeing the doctor. So that's an example of a service which doesn't require any application as such. It's an invisible service, if you like.
Fleur Anderson:
Well, we like it when we don't have to do anything and we get money in the bank account. So just going back to, well, some of the minor differences, I mean, obviously you mentioned before seem that you didn't go for your morning jog because it's November over there and it's extremely cold. Now, I did read that saunas are a big thing in Estonia, particularly in the business world. And that you mentioned this in terms of a case study of how it can work with digital government. Can you just explain to us Australians who don't have saunas, is it their usual daily life, but how you can see this working?
Siim Sikkut:
So, sauna or sauna, I mean, it's used to be place for socializing, and especially, like you said, Novembers and dark winters and long nights. So it was a lot of a place to get together. So we've used that effect quite a lot to sort of get collaboration going. So I'm not ashamed to say getting one of the most effective ways to solve cross governmental challenges is to organize a sauna, basically a workshop with a sauna event, but people really open up and they really sort of talk through what's going on, why is not stuff happening or what's the challenge and so forth. So there you go. That's the sauna thing for us, I guess.
Fleur Anderson:
I did read though, that you had said somewhere that also on the vein of collaboration, that if you come up with a business idea that while you are having a meeting in your sauna or sauna, that you should be able to register the business and go through payroll and do all those services on your device, in the sauna.
Siim Sikkut:
That's the thing or anywhere for that matter.
Fleur Anderson:
Yes.
Siim Sikkut:
And look, that's what... One of the things that digital services allow for us. So one thing obviously is all sort of accessibility and sort of convenience they bring. You can be anywhere even in a sauna and you get your stuff done immediately. But I think also it's this acceleration. So just the fact that look, I had this great new business idea, immediately, I have it up and running.
So this accelerates a lot of just innovation and trialing and all things. In Australia, we have been so very lucky and blessed to have an awesome startup ecosystem built up. And obviously a lot of the reasons for that are different, but one of the contributing factors has been exactly, that's easy to set up things, it's easy to run companies, it's easy to do stuff, and that facilitates growth in the end, just like Randall was giving an example in terms of just even the savings that it can bring you.
But I want you just throw in one more thing, Randall you're right. So mortgage has become digital, or let's say just buying a house and selling a house can happen digitally. And why? That's the COVID for you. Because again, I mean, so even, we had this bit of, let's say next few accelerations from that. And obviously, I mean, keen admire, and I guess sort of shameless distributor of all the Google stuff you've been doing and you were doing in detail in Australia with COVID stuff. So I think it's been great to see how my much Australia has really accelerated from that, not all government states.
Fleur Anderson:
Right. So that is interesting, actually. So Randall, the work that Australia's been doing in COVID and digital service delivery, as Siim is saying, is leading many countries. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you've been doing?
Randall Brugeaud:
So during the height of the pandemic, I think every country was dealing with lots of fires and it was about survival and ensuring that the local communities were protected, but also that as businesses were impacted and people were unable to work, that there was the appropriate supports, they were able to get to people. And information was very important aspect of the response in the height of the pandemic, in making sure that people were able to get the facts that they needed in an integrated way.
And I think the pandemic for Australia really brought the best out in government, and it demonstrated that we can be fast, we can be creative and we can deliver outcomes that are absolutely centered on what the customer needs. And I think during the height of the pandemic, and as we are now starting to think about recovery, reopening, rebuilding, preserving those behaviors, which was singular purpose, taking informed risks, not being held to complex hierarchies, we simply focused on the problem, we looked at options and we delivered outcomes, and we are doing more and more of that.
I think post pandemic, maintaining that is going to be something that will need to be tested over time. I think the signs are positive though, that we are seeing many examples of where we are being much more nimble, much more creative, much more customer-focused, and continuing that momentum is going to be important.
Fleur Anderson:
So what were some of the specific things that the Australian government did in their COVID response that people might be familiar with just their everyday life?
Randall Brugeaud:
Yeah. So a couple of really good examples relate to information products. So we worked on a platform, australia.gov.au, which we repurposed to provide COVID-19 related information.
Fleur Anderson:
I remember that. I remember looking at that as a, just a lay person being, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next?" And going to that very site.
Randall Brugeaud:
And as the community was worried about what symptoms they needed to be aware of and what treatment and testing options were available, where outbreaks were occurring, what supports they might have access to, we very rapidly bought that together into an integrated information source across government. We stood up the first iteration of that in 24 hours, unheard of.
We brought together public officials, ministerial offices, the private sector, we did twice daily standups staff in end of each day, we delivered increments in multiple releases per day following that first release after 24 hours, and we're able to deliver a number of other channels for those who didn't have access to web-based services with information channels via WhatsApp, we developed an app that provided information, and we also supported the contact tracing efforts and the other work that was going on across other government agencies to ensure that they had consistent content and that was delivered in a timely fashion. So there were whole bunch of products that we delivered in those first few months of the pandemic that would ordinarily taken years if we had have use traditional methods and governance.
Fleur Anderson:
Well, I guess it's kind of interesting, isn't it? That it's a little bit similar in some ways to, as Siim was saying, when Estonia was starting essentially as a new country and starting from the ground up and just had to ramp it up very quickly, in this case, Australia was, we hate using the word unprecedented, but it was the first time we'd ever had to do anything like this. So you did have the similar kind of imperative to just get cracking.
Randall Brugeaud:
I think we had a few examples of where we had done similar things in either natural disaster responses with bush fires and flood, where we demonstrated for a short period of time that we could come together, and it's incredible what a crisis does for your focus and your desire to get to an outcome.
And so I think we'd had a couple of test runs leading up to the pandemic, but the pandemic was unprecedented in that it was broad, it impacted all of the community and it's been very long running through multiple phases. So it has been shown before that we can do these responses to crises and come up with very effective solutions, but this required a very different and very sustained effort. And as we are thinking about reopening, and we're thinking about the recovery and collaborating with other countries, we're needing to think about how we sit in a global environment and digital will be important to that as we think about how we recognize vaccination records between countries as we fly with the first steps that we are taking in our local region. And I know in Europe, there's been a much broader opening, but we are going to need to deal with that, and it will be a sustained response that we'll need to provide.
Fleur Anderson:
Yes, that's very interesting because, as you say, we are now at that stage of reopening. Siim, you are obviously sort of a little bit further ahead being part of Europe, what lessons have you learned or Estonia learned from the pandemic and in terms of digital government service delivery.
Siim Sikkut:
There's a few things that I have distilled at least for myself in a way. First of all, we really saw from all our experience and elsewhere as well, it pays to be digital. So, let's say when we had to switch real almost overnight to remote work, remote study, remote government, I mean everything, it wasn't that big of a deal because everything had been digital available anyway. So I mean everything was basically operating remotely anyway, in essence. And so it shows you that the resilience you get from situations like that, but secondly, just like Randall is saying it really showed that even if there have been blockers along the digital way before there is a different way and way around them.
I think Randall and I have had this conversation a few you times and also publicly, but I think the key now is to say that how can we make that experience stick? So, even, I guess in the audience of today sort of chat, so whoever sort of had the exposure that, "Hey, it actually can be done." Make it last and sort of take the experience that really to build it in now and sort of not that go in a way.
So what I'm just trying to get is to say that COVID, it's awesome how it accelerated some things, but it's not really the daily job to make sure this sort of it stays. And it's not for granted necessarily because the old habits can kick in easy there. My third thing that I would bring out and that's a very sort of Estonia thing in a way used to say that we used it also as a chance to really take a few things from the drawer, and that had been to basic somehow cooked up and really put to practice.
So, mortgages was a thing here, or let's say buying a house and selling a house, essentially was technologically ready for some time, because that was just, again, the resistance from take up part or another example was, let's say remote visits to the doctor, again, technology have been piloted, tried tested, but the incentives in the health system were against that. Now suddenly all visits were not happening anyway, so doctors had an immediate incentive to start accepting also remote option. And so we had a few points of tweak and now they're there to stay. So this is my point of saying is what we really learned also is that it's hard to do, but sometimes you might do exploratory work that will become handy in the future.
And if we then can manage to put sudden windows of opportunity to use then that's the way to accelerate. I think Randall has quite a few examples of saying that where work previously done led to the chance of being fast adopted. So whether it was an identity or publishing platforms or whatever.
And my fourth thing, what we really sort of saw from our experience and to add a bit of the grain of salt as well, is that fundamental issue that I think many of us governments have, and we definitely have in Estonia, is that the maturity and the capabilities uneven. That is why, by the way, I mean, I admire the work you do on digital profession in Australia. So the capacity is uneven, which means that, even in our case, even if stuff is available digitally that doesn't mean it's always the best, it's always the most user centric, or even let's say always the well thought out.
And what I'm trying to get as a point of example, is that we completely failed, for example, with COVID vaccination registration. So, for people to sign up to get vax in the arm, why? Because it wasn't a failure of technology necessarily, or that much, it was rather a failure that the whole service or the process behind was so poorly thought through and why? Because of the capacity issues and stuff like that. So, it really brought home, I hope also by a few and sort of in later examples that we really need to up the game in areas where the method maturity and that capacity is not there.
Fleur Anderson:
That's so interesting. So in Estonia, the COVID vaccination certificates didn't work out as you'd hoped. Here, we are going pretty well on that. But the other thing that I just wanted to go back and I'd love to get your reflections on, about making it stick. Obviously, it is very important that we don't go backwards, but what is it exactly that we can do to encourage things to stick and not to have outdated modes or institutions go back to sort of lazy old unproductive ways. And it might be industry related, profession related, just legacies. Randall, maybe if I could ask you about that?
Randall Brugeaud:
There are some things that just make sense. Siim mentioned visits to the doctor, which are provided virtually, so telehealth. The access that that provides to the community where there may not have been the potential for individuals to see health professionals in areas where there may be scarcity of skills, that makes sense, and that is continuing. I know my daughters have done virtual visits with their doctors recently, even where we haven't been in a period of a lockdown because it makes sense, it's efficient and the technology environment is such that it is reliable and people trust the service.
So I think there are things in relation to that, that virtual engagement that will remain. And I think also Siim mentioned the virtual working, and I think we'll see for years to come the combination of physical and virtual work arrangements. Now, nothing beats being able to shake somebody's hand or look across the table at somebody, but there is that opportunity to be much more inclusive through providing opportunities to work virtually. And I know from our perspective with skills, we have a very small taskforce, but we have people spread around the country that we're able to bring in and they are effective members of the team because we've rethought what it may means to be a team member, and we have rituals that allow us to engage virtually and maintain that contact that we wouldn't have previously undertaken.
Fleur Anderson:
So that's really interesting. So that's one of the things that you've sort of taken from your former role as CEO of the digital transformation agency to your new role as head of the Simplified Trade System Taskforce. So what else have you learned and how are you applying that now that we are pivoting from sort of an inward facing period over the last 18 months, to looking back out to the rest of the world?
Randall Brugeaud:
The concepts are very similar. So if I think to a whole of government digital role and a whole of government trade role, the concepts of collaboration, sharing, digitization, simplification, automation, these are common. And so if you think to the cross border trade environment, during the pandemic, people have had lots more money to spend because they haven't been traveling and going out as much. And so trade has actually been vibrant in an Australian context. In fact, globally trade has tested the bounds of infrastructure capacity. So freight capacity is not sufficient to scale up to the level as quickly as what we've seen with the pandemic, but as we start to conceive of what the future cross border trade environment might look like, we're applying all of those concepts that we'd thought about in the whole of government digital realm. So we need to be user-centric, such that we understand the actual experience of people that engage in cross border trade.
We need to understand the rules that exist, we need to understand the systems that support that, we need to understand the investments that are being made. And then based on the areas where investment can have the greatest impact, we can provide advice to government as to where they might take target that to offer a good return. And so conceptually, it's exactly the same as what we were doing in the whole of government digital. The slight variation is we're looking at both regulations, as well as digital and ICT systems. So we're looking at simplifying the rules and making services more joined up from an end user perspective. And to the point earlier about not simply making digital copies of paper-based forms, we are absolutely moving to a place where it's a Tellus once integrated environment that provides the kind of service that people would expect in a more contemporary environment.
Fleur Anderson:
So an easy job then to get that all done.
Randall Brugeaud:
Yeah. And Siim has faced these challenges as well, in that it is a type of role where you're often in other people's business, you do need to draw on their experience, but you do also need to think across the entire ecosystem. And so the end-to-end business experience or end user experience as the focus is very different than an agency by agency or portfolio by portfolio view, because they're focused on the services that they provide, where we are very much focused on how do goods move from A to B and how do we interoperate with our partners.
Fleur Anderson:
Very complex. And Siim, what's your observation on that? And what do you think the challenges are for 2020? Well, the rest of 2021/22 and beyond, and back to the question of making it stick and pushing it forward?
Siim Sikkut:
I still go back to the point that I highlighted that the capability or the capacity part is so crucial. And if I speak really from Estonia and my own work perspective, then for us to challenge it, so how do we change that game and how do we really get to other people's business, like Randall said, in that game too? The context in our case is that there is no whole of government training or professional development path or anything like that. So we've been thinking, okay, how do we build some of that space starting, or at least for digital competencies and area in a way?
So I think from, if you ask me, or if you ask Randall, or let's say our peers, our business is basically a whole of government view. And so how I would frame it is that how do we lift all the boats? And that's the sort of ongoing challenge. So, whether it's capacity building, whether it's basically somehow defining what good looks like. So that's where the sort things like service standards and other requirements come in. So the challenge has not changed, the particular elements of that will be different from here. They're fundamental is the same game for us, how do we help others? How do we lift all those hopes up and higher?
Our focus in Estonia just to really be sharp, the sharper in my response capability and capacity stuff. Secondly, and especially for getting executives and getting people who are supposed to be service owners up to their game in terms of understanding how digital can help them and drive some of this practices of how to deliver on this, the fundamental differentiator, I think within governments and between governments is delivery capacity and managing for delivery. And that's an ongoing struggle as people change and stuff like that.
Fleur Anderson:
So that's a very good segue then too, Randall as head of the digital profession, this is one of the big imperatives for the Australian public service is getting that capability and upskilling. So could I just ask you to share some of your reflections on that and how digital professions, if either in Australia or in Estonia, what the role is for them to help transform a nation digitally?
Randall Brugeaud:
So I think that coordinated approach at a national level is really important. And this isn't just government, it's education providers and industry associations and industry for that matter as well, to help lift capability. And we've been dealing with a period during COVID where there hasn't been physical movement of people between countries, as it would ordinarily have occurred. So our capacity to drawing skilled migrants, our capacity to offer opportunities for international students has not been there for a couple of years.
So we've really focused on ensuring that we understand the capability that currently exists in the Australian government as our first focus area, then looking at what we need based on the strategic planning that we are doing across government. And then the secret source is working out how we move from where we are to where we need to be, and provide visibility of that to the people who are currently either working within government, or would like to be working within government.
And so we've been building many foundations that are going to stand us in good stead in long term as we're progressively expanding our programs, skills, frameworks, to ensure that we understand what skills make up, what roles that we have, the capacity to offer training and development that's targeted to the skills uplift that we need for individuals, that we have membership platforms that allow visibility of both skills and individuals and opportunities that might exist and allow them to do matching communities of practice, support programs, mentoring, gender-based programs, because in digital, there is a significant gender imbalance where we simply don't have enough females globally in STEM digital and ICT roles. And then embedding this within the practices such that we have recruitment and talent attraction programs that get the best and brightest and match them to the right kinds of roles in the areas of greatest need.
Fleur Anderson:
So that's really interesting. You mentioned earlier about, I think both of you were talking about part of the efficiency is to build in more well efficient systems, but also automation of decision making. Now, whenever there's a discussion about the future of work, there's always the thinking like a robot's going to take my job, but you've mentioned all the things about, we need people with particular skills in the digital profession. Can you, both of you, reflect on specifically, if you're talking to say someone who's just sat there year 12 exams last week, end of high school, what are those particular skills that are really just crying out for people at the moment? Siim, would you like to-
Siim Sikkut:
Well, first of all, I want to just briefly add my view on the robots taking our jobs. So I always try to sort of tell to people and with some examples that think about it this way, it's that all those robots will actually make my job more fun for me, a lot more interesting for me. So this is the point is that, so, especially with today's, or let's say next few years of technological development level, we are not talking here about any sort of super machines and super intelligent stuff, we're talking about here that finally computers, programs, bots, whatever can solve some of the remaining tedious stuff we are supposed to do still, like just even the fact that we used to have just last year, people typing up court proceedings and parliamentary hearings, the silliest job possible, I'm sorry, but it's something that our phones can literally do with technology wise today.
Our challenge was that we had to make it possible in Estonia language, but my point being so, but these people now are liberated to do something that's much more sort of stimulating valuable for them, and I think this sort of narrative, it has to be realist of always sort of explained to people as well.
Now from digital, let's say skills point of view, we have defined and not originally, but still let's say five clusters of what we can call competencies as we think that every single sermon, and especially the executives should have, and they revolve around, like I said, not originally, well, first of all, understanding where is technology heading and what can it do, so some sort of just basic appreciation of that. Secondly, everything around service design with digital, so starting from core, even non-digital concepts of how to do a good service and then provide a good service.
And then how digital can help for that all the way to, just like Randall said, reusing data and principles of [inaudible 00:49:00] and what have you. Third data literacy, and again, an appreciation of how from data, I can derive insights that I would be asking more question. So that's basically where we try to get to.
Fourth thing is everything around information security and cyber security, because we see that, that's a big element of trust and it really starts from the element that is between the chair and the device. So it's the cyber origin of us that's where all the big incidents literally start from somebody doing something foolishly very simple things.
And the fifth thing is a bit more complex, but we try to really tell and have people understand how our digital government works. What's the architecture set up? What are the principles supposed to be built in so that they can tap into that and plug into that more.
Fleur Anderson:
That's really fantastic. And Randall, do you have anything to add on that? It sounds fairly similar to Australia.
Randall Brugeaud:
It is most definitely.
Fleur Anderson:
Yes. And you also mentioned just quickly invisible government services. Now I understand this is the next big stage of digital government. And you mentioned before Medicare cards, swiping, the money goes into your bank account. What else can we expect to see from the transformation of digital government from 2022 onwards, Randall?
Randall Brugeaud:
So I think it will be more of an integrated experience. And I was reading Siim about the passport renewal process in Estonia, which I think is a fantastic example. The Estonian government knows about you, it knows when your passport's about to expire, it reminds you six months out that it's about to expire. And when it does, it prefills the form for you with everything that the government already knows about you and says, "Send us a new photo." That is-
Fleur Anderson:
Sounds good.
Randall Brugeaud:
... a helpful, simple, respectful service, which is really where we are aiming to emulate that type of service here in Australia, where government gets out of the way when it shouldn't be in the way, it stands in the way when it should. And it is as helpful as it can possibly be in recognizing information that's been previously provided and only asking for more when it's completely necessary to complete the service transaction.
Fleur Anderson:
Well, that sounds good with the passport example. It's a bit of a nightmare to do it in the old days. Isn't it? And Siim, what would you suggest 2022 and beyond?
Siim Sikkut:
I will be fully blunt - I think I've sold it too well. So that's exactly how we're trying to build it still. We are, let's say halfway through that, Randall, I like that,. So that the reminders are there, and so let's say the prefilled part is there as you log in, but we still haven't gotten to the point where we literally just prompt you and ask you, but that's exactly what we want to do. So we want to reduce the need for you to come us, and so not to make stuff invisible, but being more proactive, more for the lack of better word, preventive in a way. So just like the passport example that, why do we wait for you to turn to us with a passport application? So, we could exactly prompt you instead of sellers with a bit more than just a reminder.
Or another example that I just really like to give, and we are really building this out now is to say that if a child is born, then why do we wait for you to come to ask to name the baby? So basically you're coming to us saying, 'Government, can I please name the baby Siim?' Or, 'Government, can I please have my money now that I'm entitled to.'
Well, actually we can turn the other around and say, 'Well, we can send you an email because a doctor has made an entry to population register in Australia.' Basically the key exist that digital health record starts, digital life starts from that and we don't even need any big data AI. We can shoot an email back to the parent and say, 'Hey, thank you for the new citizen.' From that, and we ask you, 'What is the name?' And we ask you what account you want the money to be sent to. We even actually know that account, probably.
So turning it around, really making the experience to be about sort of more helpful and taking all the need to interact away is a thing. I often get asked about this, so, I mean, would it turn us into a nanny state of sorts? And I mean to that, I must have a simple examples, I said, 'Look, do you really want to spend your life talking to the bureaucracy? Or just engaging with bureaucracy or you rather want to be helped if you really need help and to use the stuff for all the other things like trade.' I'm joking. So that's our motivation behind us is to really unleash time and effort from where it shouldn't be.
And my last bit about this is, so what we're trying to do in Estonia is also to add to that a bit of next stage technology in a way. So we are really be making a bet that virtual assistance in our phones, fridge, car, whatever, will be the next interface. So while we're working, we try to verify that to sit at all of government information, all these invisible services should be available through virtual assistance, as opposed to website, app and whatever. And so the point being that, look, if your passport renewal is due, it's the theory of whatever phone you're having, prompts you up and says, 'Hey, Siim, do you want a new passport?' So again, proactive brought through different channel even much more, again, convenient to use than whatever good thumb work we do.
Randall Brugeaud:
Yeah. And the similarities again are striking in that the personalized services, the proactive services just as Siim's been talking about is exactly the strategy that we have for my gap services, such that people-
Fleur Anderson:
Based through our life events.
Randall Brugeaud:
... notified based on particular life events and there's proactive notification investment in bots, also in providing that support that is personalized and context sensitive and having a combination of unauthenticated, which is, "I'd just like to know what services I have available to me as a business." And then personalized once you've authenticated yourself to say, "Here are the specific services that you would be eligible for based on your specific context."
Fleur Anderson:
Well, just it's fascinating to think about what it's going to be like in even another five years, but-
Randall Brugeaud:
And then there is one point before we wrap up, and that just relates to the implication of being heavily reliant on digital services in providing government services, and that is the security and resilience of those services. And Siim mentioned it from the point of view of the data embassy, but as we become more reliant on technology, the more important that it is there, because if there is no other option other than technology, because we don't have swarms of people sitting to wait and answer the phone or take that form that you've filled in, it is absolutely critical that we invest in ensuring that we have reliable, scalable and secure services. So that's another big focus area for the Australian government, and I know it is for Estonia and most countries around the world.
Fleur Anderson:
Making sure it's there when we need it.
Randall Brugeaud:
The critical infrastructure are government services, the risk associated with those services not being there is a very different conversation than it would've been even a decade ago.
Fleur Anderson:
Okay. Well, look, that's just absolutely fascinating and I'm sure we could talk for a few more hours, but we will have to wrap up. So Randall and Siim, thank you so much for your time and to Siim and our Estonia listeners, [foreign language 00:57:18], that means goodbye.
Siim Sikkut:
[foreign language 00:57:20].
Fleur Anderson:
Goodbye. Thanks so much.
Randall Brugeaud:
Thanks so much. Bye-bye.
Siim Sikkut:
Yes. Thank you.
Fleur Anderson:
You've been listening to the Digital Professions Insights Podcast. Find the Digital Insights Podcast on all major podcast services. Stay up to date by following us on LinkedIn or Facebook. And of course, if you haven't done so yet, join the profession today, you'll get access to exclusive learning opportunities, accreditation of your skills and the chance to connect with peers across government, visit digitalprofession.gov.au for more information. See you next time.